Chip Tester de 8bit-museum.de - Reloaded

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Re: Chip Tester de 8bit-museum.de - Reloaded

Mensaje por Popopo » 11 Sep 2020, 22:00

papanillu escribió:
11 Sep 2020, 21:20
Hi,
It sounds very good,
But i would like to have started the building, and write some questions before the meeting.
And we could also have a wissebier in this meeting.


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk
That's a great idea, could be nice to record it on Youtube like a Live interview, where people could ask questions and you explain everything about the board and how it works ... so on.
Would be fantastic

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Re: Chip Tester de 8bit-museum.de - Reloaded

Mensaje por slabbi » 12 Sep 2020, 09:26

To be honest: for the first time I prefer a small meeting to answer some technical questions ;)
I save the idea with a recorded YouTube session etc. for the future.

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Re: Chip Tester de 8bit-museum.de - Reloaded

Mensaje por papanillu » 12 Sep 2020, 13:09

I’ve got an email from reichelt.de they send the parcel with the parts with other courier, this time with ups.
As I’m starting to be less confident with correos citypaq, this time they has send to my home address.
Hope to get the parts next week.

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Re: Chip Tester de 8bit-museum.de - Reloaded

Mensaje por Popopo » 12 Sep 2020, 13:55

papanillu escribió:
12 Sep 2020, 13:09
I’ve got an email from reichelt.de they send the parcel with the parts with other courier, this time with ups.
As I’m starting to be less confident with correos citypaq, this time they has send to my home address.
Hope to get the parts next week.
Such an inconvenient :(

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Re: Chip Tester de 8bit-museum.de - Reloaded

Mensaje por slabbi » 12 Sep 2020, 16:58

Popopo escribió:
12 Sep 2020, 13:55
papanillu escribió:
12 Sep 2020, 13:09
I’ve got an email from reichelt.de they send the parcel with the parts with other courier, this time with ups.
As I’m starting to be less confident with correos citypaq, this time they has send to my home address.
Hope to get the parts next week.
Such an inconvenient :(
Reichelt used DHL for a very long time but some months ago they switched to DPD. Since this change, parcels are often delayed.
The only way to convince Reichelt to use DHL again is to give feedback when parcels arrive late or are damaged.

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Re: Chip Tester de 8bit-museum.de - Reloaded

Mensaje por slabbi » 12 Sep 2020, 17:27

I'm currently playing with making PALs and GALs readable.

And since I know that the idea will come: No, it won't go as far as to determine the logic equations. That would be very interesting and would again be a challenge, but there is no more memory on the chip. ;)

Since I don't have a 20 pol. PAL / GAL just had at hand, I simply took a 74244 to test the code (10 inputs and 8 outputs, so basically nothing else).

Imagen

The inputs / outputs are entered once (G is GND and V is Vcc):

Imagen

After that we practically have a PAL with 10 inputs and 8 outputs (i.e. 1024 possibilities in combination):

Imagen

A 1 KB file with the following content (these are the outputs) then lands on the SD card:

Imagen

If you enter this in an Excel table, everything suddenly becomes very simple:

Imagen

"Output Enable 1" is on pin 1. Whenever this is HIGH, the outputs are "1" (actually high resistance, but the tester has pullups there).

If pin 1 is LOW, the corresponding input signal is present at the output, e.g. Line (address) 12: I3 and I2 are HIGH, i.e. O3 and O2 are also HIGH.

If you read out a PAL or GAL (or a 74244 as above) you would sort the columns a bit before the analysis. In the above example e.g. move the column with the "1G" to the left and reverse the order of the output columns and you would immediately see that there is a 1: 1 relationship here (i.e. a bus driver/buffer etc.).

With the 20-pin PAL/GALs, pins 1-9 are always input, but I currently have this "programmable" (and would leave it that way). More than 8 outputs are also not provided.

The 22V8 are currently not (yet) planned, as the display only offers 20 characters/line.

This is an experiment. No guarantee that I implement this in the next firmware release. I am currently not sure if this is really useful.
Última edición por slabbi el 12 Sep 2020, 21:39, editado 1 vez en total.

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Re: Chip Tester de 8bit-museum.de - Reloaded

Mensaje por papanillu » 12 Sep 2020, 19:12

Popopo escribió:
12 Sep 2020, 13:55
papanillu escribió:
12 Sep 2020, 13:09
I’ve got an email from reichelt.de they send the parcel with the parts with other courier, this time with ups.
As I’m starting to be less confident with correos citypaq, this time they has send to my home address.
Hope to get the parts next week.
Such an inconvenient :(
The inconvenient was 2 weeks ago, when DPD (Seur here) decided to return the parcel.
Now I'm happy with the customer service as they resend the parcel as soon the had it back.

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Re: Chip Tester de 8bit-museum.de - Reloaded

Mensaje por slabbi » 12 Sep 2020, 19:56

Since the question came up in the German forum:

There are some limitations:

From http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/readpal.php
This approach does not work for the following devices:

All registered PAL devices. (PAL16R4, PAL16R6, PAL16R8, etc.)
All GAL devices configured to be registered. (GAL16V8, etc.)
PEEL devices (18CV8, etc.) which have a different architecture than PALs / GALs.
Non-PAL or GAL devices (82S153, PLS153, etc.) which have a different architecture and pinout than PALs / GALs.

In general all registered devices cannot be dumped, which includes purely combinatorial devices that implement latches through combinational logic


Specific limitations for GAL16V8

A GAL16V8 can be configured as combinatorial, registered, or mixed. Only purely combinatorial configurations can be dumped. To aid in identifying a registered configuration you may note that pin 11 (OE #) is tied to ground and pin 1 (CLK) is tied to a clock source or write strobe. However these types of connections are not reliable indicators of a registered configuration.
With simple PALs, you can quite easily determine logic equations that reflect the behavior of the chip in this way.

An example: An address decoder that delivers / CS1 at A11 / A14 = 1 and Ax = 0 and / CS2 at A11 / A12 = 1 and Ax = 0.

That is easy to recognize and you can determine the logic equations accordingly. There are enough systems that use a PAL16H8 in exactly the same way.

With the information you can sit down and determine appropriate logic equations and program a PAL (or GAL that is still available).

And now it's going to get creepy for some (ashes on my head):

With the read out data you could also program an EPROM or EEPROM and use it as a PAL replacement, at least if it is an old PAL. The inputs go to the address lines, the outputs to the data lines, /OE and /CS to LOW. And yes, I know that this doesn't always work for various reasons, but you can still try it out.

With the C64 there are corresponding attempts that work more or less well.

By the way, these are the PALs I'm talking about:

Imagen

and many GALs are used in the same way (basically, a GAL16V8 can replace the PAL10H8, PAL12H6, PAL14H4, PAL16H2, PAL10L8, PAL12L6, PAL14L4, PAL16L2 and PAL16C1).


Here's above example again in a very simple way:

The same IC (a 74244) but only defines 5 inputs and 4 outputs:

Imagen

Imagen

The tester delivers the following file:

Imagen

Entered in an Excel table, you can see the output enable signal on pin 19:

Imagen

I am thinking about to also set the voltage supply via the menu, then you can reproach the tester for anything and later see how the chip behaved.

It is only a tool to go through all the input combinations and observe the outputs. With a little effort, under certain conditions, you can come up with suitable logic equations again.
Última edición por slabbi el 12 Sep 2020, 21:41, editado 1 vez en total.

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Re: Chip Tester de 8bit-museum.de - Reloaded

Mensaje por geloalex » 12 Sep 2020, 21:07

Very good job Slabbi :|
there are some photos that i cant see can you revise them?
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Re: Chip Tester de 8bit-museum.de - Reloaded

Mensaje por slabbi » 12 Sep 2020, 21:42

geloalex escribió:
12 Sep 2020, 21:07
Very good job Slabbi :|
there are some photos that i cant see can you revise them?
Strange. I could see all pictures. I moved these to a picture host. Better?

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